Episode 18: Distiller Nicole Austin (George Dickel) talks Tennessee Whiskey
Part One of our two-part conversation available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts.
Excerpt: What Is Tennessee Whiskey & Why Is It Not Bourbon?
We started this conversation with a joke.
Neff: So Tennessee Whiskey is basically light bourbon, right?
Nicole Austin: A lot of people think that. A lot of bourbon nerds, a lot of whisky nerds think that, and it’s not an unfair assumption, right? Because if all you know is it has the same rules as bourbon plus filtration, that’s not an unreasonable assumption. I understand people think that but it’s based on a sort of a false premise: the idea that we do everything the exact same way that a traditional bourbon producer does plus filtration.
Neff: Well, the bourbon producers have certain boundaries, right? But outside of those boundaries, they can kind of do whatever they want. Is there anything in the U S code that says that Tennessee Whiskey couldn’t be bourbon if it wanted to?
Nicole Austin: It is bourbon. All Tennessee whiskey could be bourbon if it wanted to. There is absolutely nothing stopping any Tennessee Whiskey producer from putting the word bourbon on their label, other than tradition.
Neff: Is there a code designation now for Tennessee Whiskey that’s as protected as bourbon?
Nicole Austin: It’s not as protected as bourbon. Bourbon is defined in the code of federal regulation, so it’s federally protected. The Tennessee Whiskey definition is a state law in the state of Tennessee.
Neff: Do you think that should change? Do you think there’s enough need for a separate category within Whiskey? Because I mean, not to talk about the elephant in the room (whose name is Jack Daniels), but one of the best selling spirits on the planet is sharing the same designation with you.
Nicole Austin: Yeah, so it’s interesting. I thought a lot about this actually; what’s the best way to protect a spirits category and an identity of spirits, and I don’t actually believe that federal regulations are the best and most effective way. But it depends on what you’re trying to do.
Like, when we were creating Empire Rye, we definitely thought about trying to get a state law passed. But the challenge with that is it is then really difficult to change. So, you know, if you’re thinking long term, I can definitely see a scenario where you have to respond to changing conditions in the market.
Right now, the definition of Tennessee Whiskey is fairly vague. It has to use the Lincoln County process and be made in Tennessee. The state has made some interpretations and guidance on what that means but, ultimately, I think the way something survives is the producers, you know, the people who have a vested interest in protecting it, sometimes need to change things, to respond to how things are changing.
I think the most robust systems are ones that the producers themselves kind of own and manage.
So you look at the Scotch Whiskey Association, it is producers. And that was the concept that we worked with as well for Empire Rye. We’re going to write it down. You know, we’re not going to change it every 30 seconds. It has to have some longevity, but there’s always innovation happening. There’s always things happening in whiskey that you’re going to have to sort of, as a group, respond to and decide to either adopt or not, or let in or not. Things are going to change.
Those laws protecting Tennessee whiskey were passed on the basis of what we understand about the Tennessee whiskey making tradition and the practices of a couple of producers. Now there’s like fifty distilleries in Tennessee. So the shape of Tennessee Whiskey, and what we think about Tennessee Whiskey twenty years from now is probably going to be different.
So I really think the best way is an association of the people that make the thing to define what it is.
Neff: So Tennessee Whiskey would basically be bourbon style…
Nicole Austin: I would say it’s the regional identity of bourbon. That’s how I would describe it.
To hear the full conversation about Tennessee Whiskey, “Gotcha Questions,” and how George Dickel would do in a cage match, listen to the full episode here.
While you’re there, check out our other Spirits Series Podcasts, and our series of Masterclasses with some of the best bartenders in the world.